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26 March 2006 @ 11:45 am
and then the boyfriend weighed in...  
I know this email may not be welcome, but I want to ask that you please not continue giving Spirited_Fey such a hard and cold shoulder.

It's obvious that you ignore her.

And whether or not you care to admit it, it APPEARS, to say the least, that you're rather passive-aggressive towards her.

Now, I've gotten to know her very well, and I can certainly say that any negative characterization you have of her is probably undue. Please consider that whatever you think you know of her, you only know her in a superficial manner through PMM and perhaps some online exchanges. She deserves a little more benefit of the doubt, and you only make yourself out to be ugly when you direct your cold shoulder and passive-aggressiveness at her.

I'm not suggesting that you become her friend. But whatever you have against her, let it go. It's not worth your time or hers.

Respectfully,
--cyandreams


WTF?
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-the redhead-theredhead on March 26th, 2006 06:49 pm (UTC)
Cyan-

You are certainly welcome to your opinions, and from what I've seen of you on PMM I would expect nothing less than you expressing it in a well thought out manner.

As for whether the email is welcome or not, that is neither here nor there *shrug*

I will, however, not stop giving Fey 'the cold shoulder' as you put it. Ignoring her is *as valid* a choice for me, as following me around and insisting on posting to me when she knows it is not welcome is for her. What makes one wrong and the other right? Indeed, I justifiably claim that my trying to avoid any further situations with her on the forums was far more of a reasonable choice than her trying to 'force' herself on me in the majority of the threads I have started or participated in for the last 5 months or so. Especially with her false interest in and supposed caring of my thoughts and opinions. It certainly leads to one feeling they are being stalked. Her insistence in doing so has certainly been noted by both PMM members and moderators alike. 'Stalked' was originally a word someone else used to me about the situation.

I do not believe she deserves the benefit of the doubt for one very simple reason - she has failed to apologize for her history of bad behavior toward me on the forums. On occasion her behavior has been quite personal and over the line, in fact earning her more than one official warning, as well as several gentle reminders. I can only imagine her reaction if I responded to her with the words and phrases she has given me. Do you think she would appreciate it if I expressed in the forums that I felt like ‘like grabbing the ice pick’ regarding her in response to a posting/opinion she made that had *nothing* to do with me? Or perhaps jumping in with ‘Yes, Fey is it not interesting/shocking to find out that your perception of things isn’t the only one on the planet? AND surely even more shocking to understand that no one is actually “wrong” for their perception or way of living in the world’ in response to a post with nothing to do about me would work better? I could go on with further examples, if I felt the need to waste the time pulling up other examples.

She has historically not given me the benefit of the doubt, so why should I accord that to her? Frankly, the lack of an apology in the forums for the public thrashings does not seem to me 'being responsible for one's shit', to borrow a phrase.

It's funny, the time I finally give in and try to say something nice (as in it's good to see she is working on the problems she *herself* brings up on the forums so often), it gets taken the wrong way *shrug* I even tried to throw in a further suggestion - just as she has done so many times with so many people on the forums. That was the *only* post toward her I have made since prior to the Vermont weekend.

She has done quite a good job of being ‘ugly’ and personal towards me for quite a while on the forums – why should she not expect to be avoided? I do not see ignoring her as being ugly. I was simply being neutral by not engaging her at all.

“It's not worth your time or hers.”

Exactly – which is why I have simply avoided her. Because neither she nor the situation has been worth my time. Her choice to continually play false sweetness and light towards me in the community is just that - *her* choice. Perceived by many as an effort to make herself look like the better person. It creates no obligation on my part. Someone who truly wanted to make thing better would clearly acknowledge their pervious bad acts and apologize. No ifs, ands, or buts; no excuses; no ‘I was having a bad day’; no ‘look at what a great person I am for ‘apologizing’. Just taking responsibility and apologizing. No worries, after a year of this I have no disillusions that it will happen.

Why does she pretend to care if I ignore her, anyway?

-the redhead-
-the redhead-theredhead on March 26th, 2006 06:49 pm (UTC)
You know, it's not going to make any difference in my life whether you choose to take my suggestion or not.

Your description of "stalked" is a little extreme; Fey posts a lot across the forums. Don't mistake that for thinking she's singled you out. But I do know she has tried to wipe the slate clean and treat you without misgivings of the past; you have clearly not taken that as a welcome invitation to start anew. The only thing I see the moderators take note of recently is your own passive-aggressive behavior towards her.

Regardless, all I can tell you is that misunderstandings happen, but that I've gotten to know Fey well enough to say that she's worth the benefit of the doubt. But If you insist on carrying baggage around and a rigid set of perceptions, then that's your prerogative. Long after Fey is gone, it's your own attitude towards people and life that you'll have to contend with. And if you think they serve you well, then I wish you the best.

Thanks for your reply.

--cyan
-the redhead-theredhead on March 26th, 2006 06:50 pm (UTC)
"You know, it's not going to make any difference in my life whether you choose to take my suggestion or not."

Nor is it going to make any difference in my life whether Fey chooses to take my suggestions and assume responsibility for her actions or not.

If it will not make any difference to you, then why did you bother to write to me? Merely to expound her view point? Just to say you supported and defended her? Because as far as I can see, you didn't really listen to a word I 'said' nor answer any of the questions I posed.

"But I do know she has tried to wipe the slate clean and treat you without misgivings of the past; you have clearly not taken that as a welcome invitation to start anew."

Why should I when she is not willing to do the simplest thing, which is apologize for singling me out in the first place? Why should I view her insistence on addressing me as anything more than forcing herself on me in a passive aggressive manner (there are dozens of examples) when she knows that her presence is unwelcome to me? I have most of the history and can take all this back to the beginning when she developed this problem. In the majority of the cases where she verbally thrashed me I was not speaking to her at all - not by name, not by implication, in threads she had not even posted it. So my question is why did she feel the need to do such things? Why has she admitted to myself and others on more than one occasion that she was rude, but apparently I should let that slide because she 'deserves the benefit of the doubt'? I find it deeply ironic that for all of her public declarations of being willing to take responsibility for her own shit, she really doesn't do so.

I find nothing wrong and everything right with standing my ground and not wavering from the position that I've maintained since she *first* chose to take umbrage with me - a public apology is necessary. Her acting like an adult and taking responsibility for her actions. Otherwise she is simply not worth wasting my time, effort, and consideration on.

I do find it amusing, however, that in addition to my only posting to her in 5 months being taken *completely* the wrong way, I am also chastised for basically leaving her completely alone and not engaging her at all. If I don't talk to her (just leaving her alone to go her own way without and further issues) I'm being mean and hurtful, but if I do talk to her I'm being mean and hurtful? Isn't that more than a bit hypocritical? I will not select the only option that seems amenable to any of you, which is to respond in only glowingly favorable terms (aka kiss her ass) on the forums. I am not that sort of a person, nor will I pander to her weakness.

-the redhead-
-the redhead-theredhead on March 26th, 2006 06:52 pm (UTC)
"Nor is it going to make any difference in my life whether Fey chooses to take my suggestions and assume responsibility for her actions or not."

Well, we're not talking about Fey, are we?

"If it will not make any difference to you, then why did you bother to write to me? Merely to expound her view point? Just to say you supported and defended her?"

I actually haven't talked to her about you since the Vermont gathering, and I haven't even mentioned to her that I wrote to you. This isn't about some secret agenda, redhead. This is about my offering some friendly advice.

"Because as far as I can see, you didn't really listen to a word I 'said' nor answer any of the questions I posed."

I thought I did. Look, my point is that you and Fey only know each other in superficial terms--a chat here and there. Are you willing to entertain the idea that your steadfast need for an apology and your perception of who/what Fey is all about, is perhaps not what she is really like at all? How does having such harsh judgment and opinion about people like Fey, whom you hardly know, serve you? Does it make the world a better place, or does it merely perpetuate misunderstandings and ill-feelings?

I don't claim to know you well, which is why I can't really offer you any advice except to say that the person you perceive Fey to be is not the person I have come to know quite well in recent months. It is sad for me to see someone characterize her as you have, when I know that that is not how she really is.

True, she has work to do to make herself better understood. But let that be her journey. What I am suggesting to you is that your opportunity is to let go of the kind of judgmental and inflexible attitudes that you seem to have of her (and perhaps others?). As I said, when Fey is long gone, it is your own attitudes towards people and life that you will have to live with.

"Why does any of this matter to you or anyone else anyway?"

Like I said, I am not writing on Fey's behalf or so that I can tell her I stood up for you. I am writing because you made a positive impression on me and I trust that you are a considerate and warm person. It saddens me to see such ill-will between people that seems so utterly unnecessary.

What you choose to do with my observations is entirely up to you. You don't need to explain yourself to me, or to make friends with Fey. What I've written is really for you to consider, as only you really know yourself well enough to say whether I'm completely off-the-mark or have a valuable point to offer.

That is all. Take care of yourself~

--A*****
-the redhead-theredhead on March 26th, 2006 06:55 pm (UTC)
Cyan-

“I actually haven't talked to her about you since the Vermont gathering, and I haven't even mentioned to her that I wrote to you. This isn't about some secret agenda, redhead. This is about my offering some friendly advice.”

Which makes me wonder even more why you bothered to write to me, really. But I will offer you a bit of friendly advice – perhaps your efforts would be better spent on Fey and advising her to change her ways and take responsibility for her own actions.

The fact is I *have* ‘cut Fey a break’ several times when she has acted out towards me on the forums. When I mentioned her history of bad behavior toward me, I meant exactly that – a *history*. In most cases where, as I said, I had not addressed her at all - not by name, not by implication, in threads she had not even posted in. Going back over a year, on and off. Multiple instances for which she has yet to apologize. In several instances I have merely held my tongue and hoped she would just leave me be. That definitely counts as cutting her a break. I have pointed out these instances to Jackthorn, who I’m sure would affirm that I’ve just tried to ignore her. Not to mention she has had multiple opportunities (and months) to apologize for any of the instances and has yet to do so.

Occasionally I have pushed back, which doesn’t result in her taking responsibility – she just swoons, cries, and takes ‘a breakee…’. My thought is that if Fey is going to jump in and smack people, it’s only reasonable to expect a very similar reaction in return.

(regarding answering questions)“I thought I did.”

No, you haven’t. Though you have stated why you wrote to me, so that one question is answered. If you read the things I wrote, you will see I posed many more than that.

“Look, my point is that you and Fey only know each other in superficial terms--a chat here and there.”

Which applies in both directions, tho Fey’s huge amount of sharing on the forums has lead most members of PMM to know far more about her than she does about them. Which is not a negative commentary, it just is what it is. Whereas I will freely admit that I am one of the least known people on PMM. How does that make any difference? It doesn’t, as far as I can tell.

“Are you willing to entertain the idea that your steadfast need for an apology and your perception of who/what Fey is all about, is perhaps not what she is really like at all?”

I can only react to what Fey presents toward me in public, which has been a lot of negative things. She has certainly been the one on the judging end, as far as I can see from her outbursts not only toward myself, but others as well. I know that she has quite a collection of first warnings and gentle reminders from her interactions with others on the forums, which leads me to believe that I’m not the only one to have experienced such things.

If that is not the person she really is, then it is up to her to prove it. You can see my previous note to you for further clarifications on this point.

“How does having such harsh judgment and opinion about people like Fey, whom you hardly know, serve you? Does it make the world a better place, or does it merely perpetuate misunderstandings and ill-feelings?”

How does it ‘serve me’? I don’t know that it does, other than to warn me away from interacting with her. Which I had done for months – just trying to stay out of the way and not respond. Which is far more consideration than she has accorded me at any time. Then I tried to be positive when she was taking a step in a beneficial direction – that obviously didn’t work. Perhaps I should have called her on each and every negative comment she made immediately. As for perpetuating misunderstanding – I do not believe I’ve misunderstood her meaning over the multiple times she has publicly been rude to me. Once, maybe. Twice, perhaps. All the times she has done so? No.
-the redhead-theredhead on March 26th, 2006 06:56 pm (UTC)
“True, she has work to do to make herself better understood. But let that be her journey.”

Yes, it is her journey to make, not mine. From not only my own experience, but ones that others have had with her as well, I’d say there’s more than a bit of work for her to do. I will reiterate that I took the step of not interacting with her at all to leave her on her journey. If she got around to taking responsibility for her own actions and apologizing, great. If she didn’t, no skin off my nose. I do not see that as a horrible choice, especially considering she had not taken the appropriate conciliatory actions. Again I think - If I don't talk to her (just leaving her alone to go her own way without and further issues) I'm being mean and hurtful (ie the horrible cold shoulder), but if I do talk to her I'm being mean and hurtful? Isn't that more than a bit hypocritical?

“What I am suggesting to you is that your opportunity is to let go of the kind of judgmental and inflexible attitudes that you seem to have of her (and perhaps others?).”

She has brought this all upon herself, through a series of bad choices and actions. Why does she not take the opportunity to clear this mess up? Her refusal to do so is just as much an ‘inflexible attitude’, is it not? As you pointed out, you don’t know anything about me, so making the judgment you have would seem to be contradictory to the advice you are trying to dispense. I am neither judgmental nor inflexible, rather compassionate and kind when the situation warrants. I’m the person who gets the calls at 3 am and saves people’s butts. I will not, however, stand to be someone’s whipping boy more than once either. Especially in public. That’s being strong and self sufficient.

“As I said, when Fey is long gone, it is your own attitudes towards people and life that you will have to live with.”

Yes, that is very true. I live with myself , my actions, my past and future every day. I don’t have a problem with who I am. I am a good and strong person.

“What I've written is really for you to consider, as only you really know yourself well enough to say whether I'm completely off-the-mark or have a valuable point to offer.”

Yes, you are completely off-the-mark regarding this situation. Perhaps that is a result of not having the full history of her words and actions toward me, but I wonder if knowing that would make any difference.

-the redhead-
-the redhead-theredhead on March 26th, 2006 06:56 pm (UTC)
Thanks for taking the time to write a thoughtful and detailed response. I do appreciate it.

I grew up in a family that was very reluctant to look at their own opportunties for improvement, because they were all so focused on whether the other person bore more responsibility and what they should do. In the end, we can only change ourselves.

I have spoken to Fey about what I have to offer her; but that is between her and I, just as I consider what we talked about to be between you and I.

Thanks again for the thoughtful reply.

--A****
-the redhead-theredhead on March 26th, 2006 06:57 pm (UTC)
Cyan-

First, I would like to apologize for the positive *rash* of typos and some repetition in my last communication to you. Unfortunately I was (and had been for several hours) trying to help a customer out of a tight spot, and was therefore distracted. Multi-tasking isn't always completely successful, thought at times it may be a necessity.

You are correct - we can only change ourselves – if that need exists. Honestly, I cannot personally identify with not taking responsibility for one’s actions, although I can intellectually see where your upbringing might lead you to perceiving such a lack in this situation. It seems my childhood was quite the opposite – the Col. did not allow one to shirk either the responsibilities attendant with, or the fair consequences of, one’s choices and actions. Another aspect of that was that one should be independent and self sufficient at all times, but to not accept undeserved or inappropriate behavior from others.

While I feel that I have done most of the communicating in this exchange, I will not think it has been a waste event though it many not have been traditionally ‘productive’. We obviously do not agree on many things, but I do appreciate the conversation.

I hope the rest of your weekend goes well.

-the redhead-
Pete 'Happy' Thomashappypete on March 27th, 2006 01:52 am (UTC)
This reply is not about you
I've never had the pleasure of going out with you.

I will make a general observation that has frustrated me in my flirtations with polyamory over the years. I'm extroverted, gregarious, cheerful, genuinely like people. Sometimes I've hit it off with someone, flirtation has ensued, and the possibility of Something More appears on the horizon.

Then we hit the problem--prettypammie is not like me. Perhaps it is a case of classical "opposites attract," but she tends to be more stand-offish, less approachable, perhaps even a little bit intimidating. The two of you hit it off fairly well because you had "horsiness" in common--a sure way to Pam's heart--but most people don't have that. Most people don't.

To earn Pam's approval requires time, energy, patience, and perhaps even bravery. I feel frustrated when potential "others" won't even take the first step with her, let alone walk the road.

Again, this is NOT about you, and I know nothing of your situation with cyandreams. It's just the thought that your post brought to my mind for my own situation.

-the redhead-theredhead on March 27th, 2006 02:00 am (UTC)
Re: This reply is not about you
a) Did you *read* the postings beyond the first one?

b) How does your comment relate any of that situation?

-the redhead-
Pete 'Happy' Thomashappypete on March 27th, 2006 02:07 am (UTC)
Re: This reply is not about you
Actually, I didn't, as I replied off of /friends, not off the entry.

And (b) it doesn't, except insofar as it was the thought that occurred to me.

Having read the thread, your correspondent appears to suffer from Geek Social Fallacy #4: Friendship Is Transitive. Because he's accepted this woman's behaviors, and he thinks that she is trying to do things, and clearly he also in some way esteems you [or why would he bother]. It seems to me to be very important to him that We All Get Along. Why?
Pete 'Happy' Thomashappypete on March 27th, 2006 02:08 am (UTC)
Re: This reply is not about you
s/do things/do things to make things right/ [those being the disingenuous, qualified half apologies you refer to else-thread].